Predator Culture, Biology And Technology

Estelle

Hunter
Yeah I gotta say I don't particularly like this part of the original design. Honestly the idea molecular manipulation by an organism, without some kind of tech. is almost too alien. I'm thinking that's why they probably ditched the idea going into the movie. I don't mind the idea as much if they have some kind of regeneration chamber though. I mean i can see them having this kind of tech which in turn makes what they do when they go to these far off worlds "heroic" in a sense. They could live forever but instead they intentionally put themselves in harms way.

We've kinda come full circle on this. Kind of interesting when you look back through our discussion thus far.

But back to my argument: If the pred is capable of all this change, it kinda renders all static ideas useless because they are so far beyond our understanding that we are wading way over our heads. That being said, for the sake of our designs, I was wondering if we could agree to use the movie design as cannon, at least physiologically speaking.

Can we agree to this?
I think this would be the best approach. But which film would that be? Predator, AvP?
The Predator from the films ( 1,2, the AvPs and Preds.) reveal "less" on Predator physiology than what we find in the book.
The ideas featured in the book could be used( within reason) to flesh out the Predator of film. I'd much rather see this, than the made-up, left field crap, we get with DH comics, which can be just as "outlandish" as the book.

I agree, it's hard to imagine the film pred "shape shifting" and such. But, I can see him- not being immortal- but having an extraordinarily long lifespan, and I can see him having a four or what-ever, chambered heart. I don't think the book should be totally set aside.
 

damagecase

Blooded
No way. I completely agree with you Estelle. The book does offer some really good insight into the character. In fact, I can say that there is little in the book that I don't like, save the physiological aspects.

As for the movies, I think all of them have a place in the predator mythos (they kinda have to because they have been released and are public knowledge. Its kinda up to us to make sense of them though...lol.)

That's one of the things I spent a lot of time on, trying to incorporate a lot of different ideas into a standardized, rational culture, psychology and physiology. Its something I have been truly passionate about really since AVP and how severely it was bashed upon release. Consequently, all the detractors could make arguments against the next 2 movies along the same lines as AVP.

Its funny but probably the worst of the last 3 movies was Predators, mythos wise. Still, I think if we wriggle it around enough we can figure out a way to fit it into the grand story. It'll just take some work.

So let me do a quick breakdown on my interpretation of the pred movies thus far:
Predator: This to me is an example of a seasoned hunter out on expedition. He made few mistakes and if his prey wasn't the caliber of Dutch, he would have come out smelling rosy. Still the best movie, although the special effects are pretty dated (although cutting edge at the time.)
Predator 2: Second best movie in my opinion, mainly because of the preds supporting cast (Danny Glover and Gary Busey). As for the mythos, I think we get our first look at a young, maybe even juvenile predator. The support I have for this is A) he has handlers, in the form of the other preds on the ship. Also who's to say that one or two of those preds didn't accompany the city hunter out, and observe him while hunting and B) at one point in the meat locker scene you see the pred cower in fear after being wounded by Harrigan. Maybe I'm being hard on him but I don't see P1 doing that in the fashion city hunter did. So I'm, thinking this is an example of one of the later tests of the predator agoge.
AVP: Like it because its preds, hate how it was executed. Again though I feel mythos wise we are dealing with young preds, probably in the last test of the agoge. Two fail miserably and Scar at least puts forth a pretty good showing, considering they were minus their primary weapon for most of the movie. Lots not to like here but it has a workable position mythos wise.
AVPR: Actually liked this one minus the lighting which sucked and the messed up predalien concept. I liked the predalien design, just didn't really care for the physiological adaptations the directors came up with. Again though, we can work with it. The Wolf is probably my second favorite predator, all time. He also represents an aspect of pred society which we have seen very little of. He hunts and works alone trying to keep the xeno infestation from getting out of control (though he fails miserably I might add). But this is what a predator is. He is a mature hunter, possibly near elder status. Again we see few mistakes, save for underestimating the predalien, which I kind feel this movie shows as, at least to the preds, is an abomination and a fairly rare occurrence. We also get some insight into a pred homeworld, their ship and some new sweet tech.
Predators: AAAARGGGGHHHH! Why! My biggest and really only complaint about this movie is if the preds are such great hunters, how come they suck so much here? The only way I can get this mess to work, mythos wise is to a lot of ad lib with pred society. My thinking is the three not so super preds are out laws, perhaps for using genetic enhancements to increase their physical prowess. I'm thinking the commandeered a ship and had been kidnapping humans to hunt on their on little hunting reserve. Maybe they were a part of a larger offshoot or deviation from pred society as a whole. The normal pred was probably a part of a larger expeditionary force trying to track down these rogues and was either marooned or intentionally left behind to monitor the "super" preds. He slipped up and got caught. Now lets look at the kill breakdown. Danny Trejos character is the first clean kill. Then the African guy is number two. Both of these are unaccredited kills. We have no idea who killed them. Next is Noland and the Russian, both sloppy kills, one of which kills the tusked pred in the process. Next is Stanz which the black pred handles easily, but not without taking some damage of his own. Then Henzo and the Bird pred fight to a stalemate(both die). Then black pred kills regular pred, Royce effectively kills Topher and then out smarts the black pred. Just and overall pretty pathetic showing from team pred. lol.
 

shadowedge

Unblooded
I am not sure if people know about this, but here are two excellent Predator studies in terms of everything we know in the EU and movies. Note the "Oocities site" is quite old and is part of the old Geocities archive so the AVP movies/Predators are not included. I don't even think the more recent novels are included either.

1. http://www.oocities.org/gunsandgod/intro.html The Yautja Encyclopedia. This site does take some liberties with the starship section though.

2. http://www.avpgalaxy.net/forum/index.php?topic=33481.0 A very detailed Predator study on AVPGalaxy by Blain.
 

damagecase

Blooded
The Blain study looks interesting. However it seems like a lot of study based on the assumption that preds are biologically similar to terrestrial organisms, which would be a stretch in my opinion. None the less very interesting. Thanks Shadowedge.
 

damagecase

Blooded
What I mean is, the dual blades seem to be ideally set for boning a human being. The width seems perfect for separating the spinal column from the rib cage. So is this a ceremonial type weapon or is it coincidence?
 

Estelle

Hunter
'boning humans'?! Wouldn't the Predator use another tool for that task ?!!..o_O

O.k., being serious here. Good question. I was at first going to say that the wrist blades were a coincidence. But after giving it some thought, I don't think they can be totally dimissed as such. I think the basics of the twin blade design has been around way before the first humans were encountered. I would say that they are an ancient tool, rooted in ceremony and tradition. However, the wrist mounted blades seen in the film, could possibly have been "tweaked" or modified specifically to dismember humans.
 

damagecase

Blooded
Maybe its a traditional combat tool? I mean the removal of the spinal column or in essence the central nervous system would be an efficient way to kill a pred, I'd imagine. And since humans are similar in design, i.e. bipedal with bilateral symmetry, it seems to do the trick. No muss no fuss...lol.

Maybe that is another reason why they take the skull and spinal column. If maybe damage to the central nervous system and head are the best most efficient ways to kill a pred, they just follow the logic that it is the best most efficient way to kill a human.
 

Estelle

Hunter
Could be. it's really hard to say. However, for some reason, I'm inclined to say that the twin-blades traditional origins lay more in the direction of a "hunting" tool, than one of combat.
Yet, that's not to say that the design wasn't later tweaked to be used as a combat weapon. While removal of the nervous sys. would definitely insure the death of a foe- heck, he'd be dead before it was completely removed from the body- I think Preds. in combat would choose a quicker, more direct route to dispatching an enemy. They cloud simply just lop off a head or pierce the heart or something.
~Estelle
 

damagecase

Blooded
You know, if we did the cardio-circulatory system, rather than the central heart idea there would be no heart shot. Ergo, decapitation or destruction of the central nervous system would be the most certain ways I can imagine to kill a pred. It seems in the movies that is the only real way to kill a pred too. With the exception of P2 but you still argue the disc cut through his abdomen all the way to his spine, destroying the CNS. The only other questionable pred death is the falconer and there we aren't really certain of the injury sustained by the pred. Actually we aren't really even certain Falconer died to be honest. Its strongly implied yes, but certainly not as punctuated as most pred deaths.
 

PredatorX98

Young Blood
Im pretty sure the Falconer was decapitated...If not then i guess i dont know what happened to him.

Edit: My bad, i think he was sliced rather far in the stomach area, possible that it could've killed him, but wouldnt seem likely because of reasons that you guys have explained.
 

Estelle

Hunter
You know, if we did the cardio-circulatory system, rather than the central heart idea there would be no heart shot. Ergo, decapitation or destruction of the central nervous system would be the most certain ways I can imagine to kill a pred. It seems in the movies that is the only real way to kill a pred too. With the exception of P2 but you still argue the disc cut through his abdomen all the way to his spine, destroying the CNS. The only other questionable pred death is the falconer and there we aren't really certain of the injury sustained by the pred. Actually we aren't really even certain Falconer died to be honest. Its strongly implied yes, but certainly not as punctuated as most pred deaths.
IDK. You do seem to have a pretty good argument in favor of your cardio-circulatory system theory. However, I just can't see it being the case. I really believe preds have a single heart. No where ( in writing or movies) is it ever eluded to other wise. I believe P. Monette, meant 'heart' when he said 'heart.' He did a good job explaining the other odd physical characteristics the predator had, so I'm sure if there was something out of the ordinary about it's "heart" and circulatory sys. it would have been mentioned.
 

Estelle

Hunter
any thoughts on the predator planet dipicted in avp requim
If find certain aspects of the home-world scene questionable. The glimpse of the AvP-R Predator Home-world, gives us a picture of a planet with open lava flows ( or what appears to be lava flows at least), no vegetation or sizable bodies of water, two suns and a hot, hazy, cloudy atmosphere.
To me, this is saying that the Preds ideal habitat/climate, is one of extreme dry heat. ( I'm not sure I completely agree with this)
While we all know that Preds do seem to prefer heat, the climate depicted in AvP-R seems a bit extreme.

It would seem that the two suns and the active, open lava flows would constantly burn off humidity and practically "dry bake'' everything, and adding to this, is that hazy cloud cover that would most likely trap the heat, keeping it near the 'earths' surface.

Now, there is another take on this. Perhaps that very same hazy cloud cover, keeps the suns' warmth out? Perhaps the planet's surface is quite cool; cold even? And, the open lava flows are manipulated and used for heat?
~Estelle
 

damagecase

Blooded
Yeah the circulatory idea is just a possibility. We have to remember in the Monette book we are dealing with an entirely different physiological design. I'm not say its good or bad, but it is very different from the dreaded, mandibled preds we know and love. If we follow the original model, we are left with something so broad and sweeping that, well its kinda like trying to nail jello to a wall...lol.

@PredatorX98: I'm thinking Falconer's death scene was meant to be a sort of homage Rodriguez included as a tribute to the old samurai movies that really kind of revolved around the concept of honor. Not certain on that though. However, we later see Berserker take five or six grenades on the chin and get up for more. Those grenades were fragmentation grenades as well so along with the shear force of the blast 'Serker also would have taking a good deal of shrapnel which again points to their extreme durability. There is definitely something special about their physiology because like Mac said in the first movie nothing on earth could walk away from that kind of damage.

@Mr. Black and Estelle: Regarding the wolf's home world, I kind of use this as evidence of a kind of cast society. Wolf would be an example of one of the different casts, rather than the warriors and hunters. He was like a DNR officer trying to control an invasive species. So I'm thinking that Wolf's world was a science and technology cast world. More developed and structured than what most preds would be comfortable in. As far as the climate and atmosphere go, I'm thinking the preds are incredibly adaptive. It seems to logically follow from the fact that they are an ancient race that has been around and through things we can't even imagine.
 

shadowedge

Unblooded
@PredatorX98: I'm thinking Falconer's death scene was meant to be a sort of homage Rodriguez included as a tribute to the old samurai movies that really kind of revolved around the concept of honor. Not certain on that though. However, we later see Berserker take five or six grenades on the chin and get up for more. Those grenades were fragmentation grenades as well so along with the shear force of the blast 'Serker also would have taking a good deal of shrapnel which again points to their extreme durability. There is definitely something special about their physiology because like Mac said in the first movie nothing on earth could walk away from that kind of damage.
Your right. Although that samurai-esque sword fight scene looked cool, it really made no sense.

The sword didn't go all the way through Falconer. I kind of doubt that regardless of the sharpness of the sword, that Hanzo would have had the physical strength to cut deep enough into the Predator.

If Berserker can survive a face full of grenades and get up like nothing happened and City Hunter can survivie 8 shotgun shells to the chest, (they did not go all the way through him) get his arm cut off, and fall several stories, then there is no way a sword can one shot a Predator's body, Even Anytime walked off getting his leg shot with a minigun. In real life minigun bullets can shoot through a jeep and tear off limbs like paper. Their bodies are likely a great deal more durable than our own. Plus look at how many swings from that axe it took to kill Berserker. A lot of them were right to the face without his mask on.
 

damagecase

Blooded
Yeah one of the things I always liked about the preds is their durability. And because of this I've often wondered about their physiology. I've always assumed some of their physiology was similar but there must be some major differences as well. That's where the idea of the cardiac muscle vascular system came from.
 

Estelle

Hunter
"Yeah the circulatory idea is just a possibility. We have to remember in the Monette book we are dealing with an entirely different physiological design. I'm not say its good or bad, but it is very different from the dreaded, mandibled preds we know and love. If we follow the original model, we are left with something so broad and sweeping that, well its kinda like trying to nail jello to a wall...lol."

Yeah, it's a different creature than the one in the film, true. But certain things associated with the 'book pred.' were transferred over to the " film pred." One being the signature "clicking" noise made by the Predator. It's origins are in the Monette novel. I feel the same is true concerning the heart.
 

damagecase

Blooded
The thing with the Monette pred is the clicking could be merely coincidental. The same is true with the heart. It was able to shapeshift and change its physical form nearly at will. That would necessarily (or at least very likely) be true of its internal physiology as well. At least that's what seems to logically follow for me.

Now the clicking I think is very distinctive and love it. I'm not sure if its a kind of echo location or if its the pred showing a earth predator trait ( a lot of predator animals, I've personally witnessed it in cats, when they are about to feed, actually mimic eating the prey before they get it in their mouths.) Its possible that the pred clicks because his mandibles are acting in an involuntary reflex... Either way its a fun character trait definitely worth exploring further.
 
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